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Post by waughboy on Jul 19, 2010 14:03:08 GMT
I. The fact that they won with a thrown together crew, no matter how experienced, does raise questions about the standard of womens rowing. Easy now you could come in for grieft there What i think is bad about it is that no club can claim the win, sure if it was a st.micks-skibb composite you could say both of them won it but nobody will ever remember the club who won the womens senior 8 this year, no club can really take pride in the win only the athletes can.
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Post by angrychair on Jul 19, 2010 14:09:12 GMT
Disagree - you ask the likes of Derry, Carrick or Killorglin who wouldn't necessarily be renowned for taking home Senior pots whether they feel pride in a win like that - of course they will as will all the other clubs represented
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Post by happyinthree on Jul 19, 2010 15:07:17 GMT
I can see for and against having composites. Most if not all of those rowing in the composite 8 would not have rowing this weekend but for the composite rule. I do however agree that a pure club win is always better. The fact that they won with a thrown together crew, no matter how experienced, does raise questions about the standard of womens rowing. Strokeside has a point but I think it's fair to say that the same applied at the weekend in the Mens Senior 8's. Some might even argue to a greater degree. NUIG's Cormac Folan and Alan Martin have years of international experience. If you pile a bunch of international standard (or at the very least the elite of the country) oarspeople together in one eight (quads or fours could be different given the heightened need for technical synchronisation), irrespective of men or women they will be very competitive if not win domestically.
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Post by quackers on Jul 19, 2010 15:51:33 GMT
I think this debate could go on for years, until rules are changed these crews and this debate isn't really relevent. crews like NUIG and the womens composite crew were fully entitled to field the crews that they did and should be proud of their achievements. Whereas I personally do not agree with the idea of an open university boat cub or a crew made up of 6/7 different clubs, at the end of the day no rules have been broken so there shouldn't really be any doubts about whether or not these clubs deserve their status as champions.
Many clubs took advantage of the lack of rules. UL's inter squad I think had one student, UCD womens crews are not all students, we know NUIG are not all students, and however many clubs were involve in the womens senior 8. Neptune had a composite in senior mens and womens events. Commercial, skib and ucd mens crews were all invovled in composites. Galway and Lady Liz aswell had composite. In reality, I think I'm right in saying that the Queens crews and Carlow were probably the only senior crew that do not apply to the debate of having a composite, fielding non students or fielding ex olympians or competitors in world championships.
3 boat final for the senior 8's wouldn't have been very interesting would it! Congrats to all comptitors, winners, clubs and organisers. Well run event, hopefully September will be the same.
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Post by waughboy on Jul 19, 2010 19:54:58 GMT
I can see for and against having composites. Most if not all of those rowing in the composite 8 would not have rowing this weekend but for the composite rule. I do however agree that a pure club win is always better. The fact that they won with a thrown together crew, no matter how experienced, does raise questions about the standard of womens rowing. Strokeside has a point but I think it's fair to say that the same applied at the weekend in the Mens Senior 8's. Some might even argue to a greater degree. NUIG's Cormac Folan and Alan Martin have years of international experience. If you pile a bunch of international standard (or at the very least the elite of the country) oarspeople together in one eight (quads or fours could be different given the heightened need for technical synchronisation), irrespective of men or women they will be very competitive if not win domestically. woah woah woah...folan and martin have been rowing with nuig practically their whole life? they werent trown into some super 8 theyed been a crew all year, the non students in a uni club is a different debate you cant compare the rainbow composite womens 8 to nuig senior mens 8 ul's inter squad had 3 lads who werent students, 2 were alumni and one went to LIT if i remember correctly. the cox was also an alumni, how long before they get slated haha last year had practically no composites, this year it had plenty, its a seemingly speradic occurence and the chances of that women 8 thing happening again is probly big..
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Post by casabud on Jul 19, 2010 23:02:02 GMT
The nuig and ucd thing is a non argrument, they are a club same as any other, weather students or not, they row for their club all year no different to any other club in the land, as for the facebook 8 just glorified pot hunters while not breaking any rules go against the spirit of the sport and add nothing to irish womans rowing.
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Post by anonymouse on Jul 19, 2010 23:17:33 GMT
what you mean they add nothing to womens rowing..surely they are set down a marker for others to aspire to?
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Post by northernrower on Jul 20, 2010 5:00:06 GMT
i disagre with composit at champs during the domestic season ok, but for 6/7 rowers 2 jump in2 a boat selected with most of the top irish female rowers is taking the piss, clubs like St mic's and skib usualy have lots of members so could easily manage 2 get a crew 2 gether possibly UL.
So i dont agree with the whole composit although id say if Derry, Killorglin and carrick and sum other club with maby only 1 or 2 other rowers at the same standard ok it could be done if the Single or Double/Pairs arent there 2 race.
Maby a rule could be ether over half the boat should be from 1 club etc more than 4 from 1 club 2 make up an 8 not including the cox. or the IARU could look through the randks and say ok Skib/st mics/commericial(just example clubs) have 5-10senior woman they cannot start 2 row composits just because 3 or 4 of them arent up2 standard as the others. Or they have 1 exseptional rower. Maby not that esacly but along those lines.
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Post by northernrower on Jul 20, 2010 5:03:00 GMT
forgot 2 add yes i agree the likes of Derry, kilorglin and carrick will take pride in the win of a senior event but still not going 2 be seen as an achievment 2 alot of other's. No rules were broken so well done i suppose.
And Ireland should realy put effort in2 schemes to get more females rowing. There seems 2 be a large drop out rate in females after junior which is the case with many sports but it looks exseptionaly lot within are case
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Post by The Little Lebowski on Jul 20, 2010 7:43:14 GMT
Quackers, as Waughboy pointed out, most of UL are current students or at the very least alumni of the university so you are incorrect about them having one student. They had an inter 8 at the varsities and a significant portion of the winning crews were in that boat, so your point is incorrect. As regards your point of Carlow and Queens being the only crews to not have been a composite of some sort, well that's not really true either. Brady and O'Donoghue from Offaly rowed in the Carlow eight. They are both double registered for both Offaly and Carlow and fair enough, they trained with the Carlow lads all year. Even though the Queens guys are bona fide students, quite a few started with different clubs, is this technically a composite?? If not, then what is the problem with the likes of NUIG, UL, UCD etc having alumni or students from other colleges in the boat. These clubs still have to go out and to bag packs table quizes and other fundraising just like every other club in the country, just because the club tied to a university doesn't mean that it gets wads of money thrown at it.
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Post by angrychair on Jul 20, 2010 8:07:01 GMT
Theres probably one other point to bear in mind also - its the clubs themselves and not Rowing Ireland that make the rules to a large extent when it comes down to it - the composite rule was up as one of the ones at the last Rules Change AGM and the current rule is what the clubs themselves decided on - it might suit one club one year and not another year if they get beaten - I think its unjust to criticise the athletes for doing something that is 100% above board, calling them pot hunters is unjust also, are all rowers not pot hunters at the end of it all? The athletes in the womens composite worked damn hard to get where they are obviously and I don't think anyone can say that there were any passengers in that boat - if people feel strongly enough that there should be a change then bring it up at club level to feed through at the next Rule Change - I have a suspicion though that there won't be any major changes to the composite rule as I said it suits people some years and doesn't suit others so I think the door will always be left open
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Post by imkindablonde on Jul 20, 2010 8:20:17 GMT
How does putting a full international crew out raise questions about the standard in womens rowing??? The majority of the women in that crew had rowed internationally at top level at some point in recent year/s. The other crews barr the OC in the UCD/OC comp were all nation level...! I dont think it raises any question about the standard of womens rowing in national level. Were we all to put an international season of training and support behind us and have the same result then maybe ask the question.
The "rainbow eight" won with a majority of internationals by 4 seconds over club crews with Juniors and novices on board...That fact would get me asking about the standard of womens rowing on a international level!!!
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Post by happyinthree on Jul 20, 2010 8:51:43 GMT
[quote author=waughboy board=general thread=801 post=9863 time=1279569298
woah woah woah...folan and martin have been rowing with nuig practically their whole life? they werent trown into some super 8 theyed been a crew all year, the non students in a uni club is a different debate you cant compare the rainbow composite womens 8 to nuig senior mens 8
Apologies, my point was that if you throw a bunch of the country's elite oarspeople together, even in a mens eight, they would probably beat the best club eight i.e. it's not just a phenomenon in Womens Rowing.
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Post by strokeofclass on Jul 20, 2010 9:16:29 GMT
“most of UL are current students or at the very least alumni of the university” I wouldn’t call 3 (at max) out of 9 “most” and alumni is irrelevant. That crew rowed as UL/Castleconnell for most of the year so effectively no better than NUIG or the “Facebook 8”. At least by compositing you are exhibiting some bit of club pride.
At the end of the day surely by winning senior 8 men or women you have to be able to beat the best in the country in order to be the BEST even if this means having to beat composites, internationally loaded or otherwise.
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Post by quackers on Jul 20, 2010 9:43:03 GMT
Lebowski,
How is it right that other tax payers money pays for non students or ex students who are not paying registration to a university but only the €10 or so that the rowing club charges? UL have the only indoor rowing facility in the country as far as I know that cost a few million, I would assume the college forked in for that. Also as stroke of class pointed out, 3 is not 'most' Don't get me wrong I take nothing away from what they achieved and they deserve their inter pots, absolutely. But when it comes down to this argument of composite crews at champs they are not a proper university crew.
For your info, the registration fees to universities paid by students contribute heavily to funding sports in most colleges. Non students therefore are feeding off others money without having to pay themselves. That is not right.
No the Queens crew are not a composite, everyone of them is registered to a course in Queens. No carlow are not a composite because they rowed as Carlow! Also just to state I don't really have a big issue with composties, especially if it is the only way to get a crew on the water. I take a big issue with non students being allowed compete for universities and that is why I have the greatest respect for crews like the Trinity senior 8 a few years ago and the Queens crews over the last few years who have done so well while still completing college courses.
The problem with alumni rowing for a university club is the exact fact that they are alumni. Either join an alumni club or join another club. Let other rowers come up through the university because one noticeable thing about NUIG this year was the lack of intermediates.
This is just my opinion on the topic. I take nothing away form those who won championships this year, fully deserved.
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