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Post by radioactiveman on Jul 12, 2010 16:00:38 GMT
Champs timetable is up on the union site.
Looks like whoever did it has never rowed a day in his/her life. Less than 2 hours between the Semi's and Finals of the Senior 4-'s and Senior 8's. Same applies to Womens Senior 4-, Mens Novice 8, Mens Novice 4 (1hr 22mins between the last heat and the 1st semi), Womens Novice 4 and I didn't even look at the junior races.
What was the point in splitting the champs if the timetable is still going to be that tight?
Why can't heats/semi's be in the morning and finals in the afternoon like every other regatta?
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b00bs
New Member
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Post by b00bs on Jul 12, 2010 16:05:37 GMT
i was wondering the same thing.... it applies to all event. seems a bit daft to be honest.
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Post by socrates on Jul 12, 2010 18:05:29 GMT
Why can't heats/semi's be in the morning and finals in the afternoon like every other regatta? That is no longer how it is at all the grand league regattas. A particular event, including semi finals and finals, is run either in the morning or in the afternoon. I prefer it that way. 2 hours is plenty. It is the same for everyone, and you know which events you can enter and not have them being run at the same time. Look through the timetable and you will find very few situations where there is a clash of events in which people might want to double up. |
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Post by strokeside on Jul 12, 2010 22:27:01 GMT
Can anyone figure out the logic of bringing the junior 16 scullers down a day early to have a time trial to reduce the numbers from 33 to 24 when that still means you still have quarter and semi finals ?
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Post by mhughes on Jul 13, 2010 0:10:56 GMT
re. strokeside...
Champs start on Friday which was always scheduled as day 1 since last AGM, how is that a day early?
The champs committee decided on 24.... some people on that body suggested 18 and lanes seeded based on times. It is year 1 of this approach... never been done before
Re. Socrates.... you have identified the underlying strategy, which was to give people a chance to tackle their No. 1 objective and then have a go at another event also without compromising on their first objective.
What is wrong with two hours? Surely fit athletes recover quiet quickly.
If we had gone for the am/pm solution, the opportunity to have a go at something else would not be there and the committee felt that 2 hour gaps were quiet adequate given that the rules used to set 1 hour as the minimum gap at regattas for Junior 16 and under only.
At least one club has missed the chance to row senior 8 because they did not analyse the situation presented by the proposed timetable in advance and let us know that they were remiss in not spotting this. Had that happened we would have had 11 senior 8's instead of 10.
Junior 18 is up and Senior is up. Inter is down on 09 but that was a year in which a lot of Novices got pushed up to Inter by the Novice bye-law. However Senior is well up in 2010 and that is very good news. 2009/10 is a time of deep recession here and that we are holding up is a great tribute to all the clubs making a big effort.
I hope that makes sense.
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Post by radioactiveman on Jul 13, 2010 8:59:52 GMT
Re. Socrates.... you have identified the underlying strategy, which was to give people a chance to tackle their No. 1 objective and then have a go at another event also without compromising on their first objective.
What is wrong with two hours? Surely fit athletes recover quiet quickly.
If we had gone for the am/pm solution, the opportunity to have a go at something else would not be there and the committee felt that 2 hour gaps were quiet adequate given that the rules used to set 1 hour as the minimum gap at regattas for Junior 16 and under only.
Look at the timetable again. Now, tell me what 2 events a senior/inter/novice man/woman would be able to do in the Friday AM slot and the Friday PM slot.
None.
Look at the Saturday timetable. Unless you are rowing across grades (can you do this at the champs?) you cannot double up in the AM/PM slots.
If one semi final is particulary harder than the other then 2 hours is not enough, its actually not fair. On top of everything its not best practice. What international regatta have you gone to/seen that has that tight of a timetable?
Again, Why can't heats be in the morning and finals be in the evening?
When we had a single championship regatta weekend we had to run the AM/PM slots programme, 2-'s in the morning, 4-'s in the afternoon on one day and 4x's in the morning and 8's in the afternoon on the other day. And it worked and everyone was happy.
Now we have a significantly reduced programme run over the same time period we had before. So why use the same reasoning to generate the programme? The season has had a huge rethink thanks to the grand league format, so why not the champs?
Is it the case of the same person doing the same job the same way for the past X amount of years? Can more thought be put into it?
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Post by mhughes on Jul 13, 2010 9:28:36 GMT
radioactive man....
Events are set in Friday to facilitate a shot at something else on Saturday. Not on the same day necessarily. As Friday is Day 1 then that was the only day to set the process in motion, if you wanted it to start before that, then the case should have been made before now.
We are NOT an International regatta and making comparisons such as that are not valid.
As for tough and easy semi's, that is how our system works. In the phsyiological sense a 2 hour gap is considered fair at all other events.
If there is pschycological pressure being exerted, we cannot control that other than to say it is exactly the same for all competitors, and that makes it fair. That is the most important criterion.
We do not expect everyone to be happy, and we will seek feedback (positive and critical).
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Post by socrates on Jul 13, 2010 9:53:11 GMT
The season has had a huge rethink thanks to the grand league format, so why not the champs? Is it the case of the same person doing the same job the same way for the past X amount of years? Can more thought be put into it? Hang on, this is the grand league format, isnt it? Events run in their entirety in a morning or an afternoon session, with a couple of hours between semi finals and finals. that has been one of the big changes. You seem to like the Grand leagues, so what is wrong with this? Dont often come to the defence of Mhughes, but you arent making any sense with that comment |
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Post by radioactiveman on Jul 13, 2010 11:13:45 GMT
Hang on, this is the grand league format, isnt it? Events run in their entirety in a morning or an afternoon session, with a couple of hours between semi finals and finals. that has been one of the big changes. You seem to like the Grand leagues, so what is wrong with this?
I did not say it was not the grand league format. I did not say that we should change the champs to the grand league format. I said the season has had a reshuffle from the norm, so why not the champs?
Events are set in Friday to facilitate a shot at something else on Saturday. Not on the same day necessarily. As Friday is Day 1 then that was the only day to set the process in motion, if you wanted it to start before that, then the case should have been made before now.
Not sure what you mean here. Take Senior Men as an example.
Why cant the Senior 4- semis be Fri AM and the finals Friday PM? And why can't the 8's heats be on Saturday AM and the final be on Saturday PM? It works across all the grades.
We are NOT an International regatta and making comparisons such as that are not valid.
Why not? The Belgian Championshps (Ghent) are called 'The International Belgian Championships'.
I also never said we should be an international regatta. But there is no reason why we can't look at them and run ours simularly. That kind of attitude is never going to get Ireland anywhere near hosting anything on the world rowing Stage.
As for tough and easy semi's, that is how our system works. In the phsyiological sense a 2 hour gap is considered fair at all other events.
If there is pschycological pressure being exerted, we cannot control that other than to say it is exactly the same for all competitors, and that makes it fair. That is the most important criterion.
But with a completly viable (and probably preferable to 9 out of 10 athletes) solution advailable why does our system have to work this way? We can't control the physiological pressure in each heat but we can give athletes adequate time to recover between races.
It'll make racing fairer and faster.
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Post by mhughes on Jul 13, 2010 12:52:53 GMT
Radioman...
Please do not misinterpret by inference... Each and every person on the Championships committee and on the Board would love to have a full international set up and to provide a warm clime regatta for us all.
There is a huge cost constraint. If we were to charge a realistic entry fee to fully cover the cost of this event it would be at least 25 per seat across the board or even more.... How loud would you scream then I wonder. What is the seat entry for HRR.
We must be realistic in our expectations. Our site is totally inappropriate for staging an event, our course is fine and will get event better in 2011 (new expensive start). We have to use external professional services to back up our generous volunteers, and that costs too.
We have inadequate parking space and an enclosure that is 80% on another party's property who actually believe that Inishcarra is NOT an event venue, and will not permit basic alterations without massive heartache. Incredible is it not? However we have to deal with that but these hurdles get jumped by others on your behalf.
The kind of attitude you are displaying is one that is blissfully unaware of organisational and infrastructural needs of providing an event of this size.
God help us all if the sport expanded by 50%. There are over 20,000 rowers in Denmark, can you see the future?.
Give us the lolly and we will give you the occasion. We can do it, and we would only love doing it. Meantime we'll try to get better by degrees.
However I will be busy trying to deal with issues and will not have any more time for discussion until next Monday.
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Post by radioactiveman on Jul 13, 2010 16:16:56 GMT
mhudges,
You are completly misinterperating me and thereby going wildly off topic. Discussions on entry fee's, complications with Coilte and Ireland's climate are for another day. Is it possible I have hit a nerve regarding the programme?
I agree that an international regatta is a huge event to organise. Slandering me by saying I'm 'blissfully unaware' of what it takes to organise a regatta is not getting you any further to tackling my query.
I never meant to give the impression that I was demanding an international regatta setup.
What I do want is our championship regatta to adopt any little pieces (in this case a revised method of generating a programme inline with the method used internationally) of an international regatta that our resources will allow. Then maybe next year we do a little bit more, the next year some more...and you see how this goes. (OK i accept the country is a pretty messed up financially at the moment so huge infastructural changes will be way down the line. But how much will it cost to revise a programme of racing?)
This idea of 'improving as we go' is not something new. Think of the Champs 8-10 years ago. Questionable finish line, zero facilities. Now, thanks to the union and the volunteers we have a fantastic course and facility for our regattas. This was achieved by looking at best practice and working towards it. The revised programme is just another step on the way there.
Now, back on topic of the programme.
I still do not see an answer to my question that will change my view on this.
Why cant the Senior 4- semis be Fri AM and the finals Friday PM? And why can't the 8's heats be on Saturday AM and the final be on Saturday PM? It works across all the grades
I don't mean to just focus on Seniors, but the comparison runs across the whole programme.
It is obviously too late to change the programme now. I wish everyone who organised and is volunteering at the regatta well and hope the regatta runs to plan.
But what happens after the regatta? Do we take the 'nothings broke so don't fix it' approach or the 'how do we make a successful regatta better' approach.
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Post by socrates on Jul 13, 2010 19:42:21 GMT
We must be realistic in our expectations. Our site is totally inappropriate for staging an event, our course is fine and will get event better in 2011 (new expensive start). We have to use external professional services to back up our generous volunteers, and that costs too. We have inadequate parking space and an enclosure that is 80% on another party's property who actually believe that Inishcarra is NOT an event venue, and will not permit basic alterations without massive heartache. God help us all if the sport expanded by 50%. There are over 20,000 rowers in Denmark, can you see the future?. So a good place to have put the national rowing centre then! (sorry couldnt resist the dig!) |
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Post by mhughes on Jul 14, 2010 7:21:52 GMT
Re. Socrates
I fully understand your comment. When this project was being considered, there was'nt much on the table about events or the expansion of the sport. The land leased is 60% cliffface and useless.
The people in charge at the time just wanted a centre and to utilise the funding as rowing had literally nothing.
Regardless of whether I agree with you on the location, it is there now and we must make the most of it.
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Post by socrates on Jul 14, 2010 8:27:00 GMT
Re. Socrates I fully understand your comment. When this project was being considered, there was'nt much on the table about events or the expansion of the sport. The land leased is 60% cliffface and useless. The people in charge at the time just wanted a centre and to utilise the funding as rowing had literally nothing. Regardless of whether I agree with you on the location, it is there now and we must make the most of it. I know, I know. Just couldnt stop myself from making the comment!! Rowing was in a different situation then, and it was that or nothing. And to be fair, the course has improved immeasurably from the bendy lanes in a cross wind, and the cow on the far field that used to mark the finish line!! Is just a bit frustrating for everyone. I dont envy those clubs that will be boating from the beach at the weekend if it is raining as much as is forecast! |
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Post by mhughes on Jul 14, 2010 12:27:57 GMT
Socrates,
we have a bit of news this year.... We have erected boat racking (scaffolding) at the NRC end and the existing racks are all moved to the beach area. There will be no trailer parking near the finish line as in previous years. (The ground has been levelled and the mound moved out to the road alignment).
As for the Beach we will have two slips (scaffolding set ups) and a ramp structure from the grass down onto the shale, if all goes well.
I hope it will be good. (Gerry Farrell is working hard to make it all happen since Monday).
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